Cy Young Smackdown: R.A. Dickey vs. Craig Kimbrel
There’s already been plenty of discussion about the relative merits of starting pitchers and relievers for Cy Young consideration. I am in the camp that believes that (a) relievers absolutely should be considered and (b) they should need to truly blow away the starting pitching competition in order to win.
The last reliever to win the Cy Young was Eric Gagne in 2003, and I believe (PEDs aside) that he deserved it. It wasn’t just the .133 batting average or .375 OPS allowed, or the K/9 rate near 15 (though those helped). It was the fact that he went the extra mile to get all the late outs his team really had to have. He was always there, with 77 appearances, including 4 days in a row 3 times, and 3 days in a row an additional 4 times. He wasn’t allergic to the 8th inning, saving 8 games he entered in the 8th. There were a few bumps in the road, but when it came to his number one responsibility, saving games, he was a perfect 55 for 55.
Despite all that, if the voters had given the award to Jason Schmidt or Mark Prior, I would have simply shrugged. I would have disagreed, but I wouldn’t have been furious, or called the writers idiots or biased. Why? Because being great for 220 innings is harder, and more valuable, than being extra super great for 82 innings.
(“Harder?” Remember Gagne’s tenure as a starting pitcher? Not pretty. Likewise Joe Nathan, Mariano Rivera, and pretty much every closer who ever started besides Eck and Smoltz. “More valuable?” Does anyone doubt that Halladay, Hamels and Lee would all be fantastic closers? Does anyone not think their teams would have been idiots to use them that way?)
This brings me, at last, to Craig Kimbrel and R.A. Dickey. Kimbrel is striking batters out at an epic rate, and challenging Gagne’s batting average and OPS records. He is the closest thing around to unhittable. And yet, he’s no 2003 Eric Gagne:
• He’s not perfect in save chances – in fact, he’s only fourth in the majors in save percentage this year.
• He’s not getting every important late out all by himself. Thanks to a smart/paranoid Braves management, he’s had perhaps the cushiest usage in the game, pitching in 60 games, 59 of which saw him begin an inning and record exactly three outs. He’s pitched 3 straight days twice all season, and never 4 straight.
All those classic arguments about closers pitching too little to measure up to starters really, really ring true for me in this case. Gagne was an exception, going beyond the role of the modern closer. Kimbrel is not. He’s the epitome of the modern closer. 15 pitches and done.
Through September 28th, here’s Kimbrel’s line. R.A. Dickey had a stretch of starts earlier this year that looked rather similar.
Kimbrel: 60.1 IP, 26 H, 7 ER, 14 BB, 111 K
Dickey: 60.2 IP, 31 H, 9 ER, 9 BB, 74 K
For 8 starts, Dickey was almost as effective as Kimbrel (fewer Ks and worse ERA, better WHIP and K/BB rate).
And then on top of that, Dickey has made an additional contribution (also through September 28th):
167 IP, 164 H, 59 ER, 45 BB, 148 K
That’s a 3.18 ERA, a shade better than Cliff Lee for 10th in the National League (in enough innings to qualify among the league leaders, no less.)
So, what’s the difference between Kimbrel and Dickey? It’s basically Tim Hudson:
172 IP, 163 H, 69 ER, 47 BB, 98 K
But with, you know, 10 fewer runs and 50 more strikeouts. I could just as easily have picked Wade Miley or Ryan Vogelsong, but I think the esteemed Mr. Hudson makes the point more strikingly.
Even subtracting Kimbrel’s exact line from Dickey’s, what you get is Ross Detwiler, who, while the least famous member of the Nats’ rotation, has more than held his own.
Detwiler: 162 IP, 145 H, 59 ER, 47 BB, 102 K (1.19 WHIP, 3.28 ERA)
Dickey minus Kimbrel: 167.1 IP, 159 H, 61 ER, 40 BB, 111 K (1.19 WHIP, 3.28 ERA)
So, dear Cy Young voters, my request is simple. If you think Tim Hudson has some value, perhaps even significant value… then vote for R.A. Dickey over Craig Kimbrel. If you think Wade Miley, or Ryan Vogelsong, or Ross Detwiler have value, perhaps even significant value… then vote for R.A. Dickey over Craig Kimbrel. Yes, Kimbrel has been pitching in pressure situations. (Though if you want pressure, try pitching with the Mets’ bullpen and defense behind you.) He’s been getting the last 3 outs in close (or at least fairly close) games. He gets some extra credit for that. But if he wanted a full Tim Hudson worth of extra credit, he should have gone 55 for 55.
(NOTE: the stats in this post were correct as of Friday, September 28. – Ed.)
Like we Mets fans, I imagine you suddenly have a lot of time on your hands, what with the Braves’ season ending a day after the Mets’.
I’m not sure anyone has been anointed the first “official” closer, but I imagine that the person closest to such a title would be Joe Page, a.k.a., “The Fireman,” who began regularly closing games for the Yankees in 1947, when he recorded 17 saves — a full five years before Hoyt Wilhelm’s MLB debut.
Further, there were dozens of knuckleballers prior to Wilhelm. For example, Eddie Cicotte won over 200 games using the knuckleball as his main pitch (his nickname was “Knuckles”). He didn’t make it into the Hall of Fame partly because he was thrown out of baseball due to his involvement in the 1919 Black Sox scandal, but he did throw a no-hitter in 1917.
Otherwise, all of your facts check out. It’s a long winter, so there’s plenty of time to research.
Also, thanks very much for acknowledging my superiority as a baseball historian as well as for my ability as a fact-checker and researcher. You’ve done an outstanding job of making me look even smarter than I thought I was — you’ve made my day!
So let’s review your version of the “facts”:
– Ed Cicotte won over 200 games as a knuckleballer from 1905 to 1920, but Hoyt Wilhelm is the “first TRUE knuckleball pitcher.” OK, you got me there.
– Joe Page saved those 76 games and finished 145 before Hoyt Wilhelm threw his first Major League pitch, yet Wilhelm was the “first official closer.” Gosh, you’re right again!
– Hoyt Wilhelm didn’t reach MLB until 1952, but since he served in WW2 we don’t count those years that Page was closing out games from 1946 to 1950. Silly me, I was under the impression that MLB games played during the war counted in the record books.
BTW, to set one more fact straight: the sarcasm is from New Jersey. The skill comes from living in New York’s shadow.
No foul-up, as I didn’t tack on 145 saves — I stated he FINISHED 145 games. Relievers who come into games and then finish them are generally called “closers.”
“It’s funny cause you never once provided a single individual stat or fact that wasn’t twisted from another’s logic and wrap it up with what you call “fact checking”.”
What’s twisted about the facts I stated? Ed Cicotte was a knuckleball pitcher before Hoyt Wilhelm was born, therefore it’s impossible for Wilhelm to be “the first TRUE knuckleball pitcher.” Or maybe I don’t understand what the word “true” means (perhaps it has a different meaning below the Mason-Dixon line?). Joe Page was a closer for the Yankees before Wilhelm pitched in MLB, and “official” is an objective term that you are using subjectively. If anything you are the one twisting words, facts, definitions, and the English language in general.
“You can keep your blog if an outsider can’t even join the debate, no rather the one tracked mindset statement that just for Mets fans. Next time you kids should have a “sorry only mets fans allowed” under a condition of joining the conversation.”
I’m not sure how/where/why you came to this conclusion. The erroneous “facts” you stated had nothing to do with anyone’s fandom. I corrected your statements because they were wrong, not because you are a Braves fan. “Outsiders” comment on this site all the time and are treated with the same respect as anyone else. I don’t care whether someone is a Mets fan or not when it comes incorrect information or inflammatory remarks — that person will receive an appropriate response.
1959 – led the league in ERA, as a starter
1965 – put up the kind of sick .175 / .226 / .277 line you might see from a modern closer — but in 144 innings!
His ’65 rates continued as he transitioned to a lighter workload in his mid-40s. Over, from 1965-1968:
.184 / .244 / .258
I’m pretty sure he was the first guy to do anything like that. Or, well, at least since Walter Johnson.
Stat nerd alert: Wilhelm benefited from a ridiculous .218 BABIP. Whether that’s weak knuckler contact, great White Sox defense, or the lack of hitting in the late ’60s, I don’t know. Probably all of the above.
that equation is pure brilliance:
kimbrel = dickey – hudson.
love it love it love it!
we got a batting title consolation last season; a Cy Young one this year would be nice…
Roy Halladay: 266 IP, 3.25 ERA, 6.9 K/9, .247 AVG and .665 OPS allowed
136 points in the Cy Young vote
Pedro Martinez: 186.2 IP, 2.22 ERA, 9.9 K/9, .215 AVG and .586 OPS allowed
20 points in the Cy Young vote
Dickey, among NL starters in Games and Innings: #1, #1
Kimbrel, among NL relievers in Games and Innings: #53, #41.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! Nice throw, Chipper. How does your kid feel about being named for a big chunk of concrete that got blown up when he was 4?
As for the Braves’ future fortunes, have you seen their record this year with Chipper out of the lineup? Not pretty. Unless he’s pulling a Brett Favre, I wouldn’t count on the Braves doing anything of significance next year (or years to come).
As for Mets fans worrying about Kimbrel stealing the CY from Dickey, I don’t think that’s a real concern. The real concern would be (1) Kershaw and then (2) Gio. Maybe Kimbrel will come in 4th in the CY voting — if he’s lucky!
Come, come, all fans of teams whose seasons are ending — as Mets fans we are happy to embrace you, share your pain, and lead you in your winter-long recovery. We are all losers together!
Funny, it’s as if you believe that Mets fans allow their team’s success or failure define their mood and state of their lives. News flash: we don’t allow the results of a sports contest or contests rule our emotions, because we’re quite happy with who we are and don’t have enormous holes / feelings of inadequacy in our lives.
Thanks for the invite to Yankee Stadium. In fact I made my first visit this summer and found it to be impressive, cold, and lacking in feeling. I think that was partially due to the stark architecture, but also due to the preponderance of tight-assed business suits yapping on their cell phones in the stands and the ushers, who stifled every attempt at creative rooting by the few enthusiastic fans who somehow slipped through the turnstiles without being apprehended by the Joint Terrorism Task Force. I feel bad for you and other Yankees fans, who have to hold in all your feelings — it must be tough, walking around all day with pent-up frustration, especially with all the other baggage you’re carrying around.
It’s OK. We Mets fans are here for you. We don’t judge — this is a safe place.Take a deep breath, and then let it all go. Once you do, you’ll feel so much better.
Funny stuff.
No one here has ever suggested that the Mets are “great.” Quite the opposite, actually. You really have absolutely no clue as to the difference between Mets fans and Yankee fans.
But please, keep it coming if you feel that’s what you need to do. It’s great entertainment for us, and maybe it will make you feel better to let all of your frustrations out.