Brewers Extend Carlos Gomez

The Milwaukee Brewers have announced a three-year, $24M extension to the contract of Carlos Gomez, locking up the speedster through 2016. But why should a Mets fan care?

For one, Gomez is a former Met, and there are some fans who like to keep tabs on players developed by the system. More importantly, I point this out to people who have suggested that Gomez could be a free-agent target of the Mets next winter. Obviously, that’s no longer an option. Some have similarly pointed to the expiring contracts of Jacoby Ellsbury, Robinson Cano, Tim Lincecum, and other gems, as ideal players for whom the Mets can spend all those millions that will be freed up when the noose of Johan Santana‘s (and to a lesser extent, Jason Bay‘s) contract is removed from payroll. It’s a great theory: huge sums of money come off the books, so the Mets can spend for big-time free-agents. Unfortunately, there are eight months between now and when those impending, high-impact free agents become available — plenty of time for their current teams to negotiate extensions. Don’t count your chickens before they hatch, says Farmer Brown.

Another reason Mets fans should care about the Gomez extension is because it will impact the cost of the few free-agent centerfielders who will be on the market next winter. The pool is now one center-fielder short, and when supply is shortened, demand (and price) increases. That pool could get considerably smaller very quickly if the A’s exercise their option for 2014 on the contracts of Chris Young and/or Coco Crisp (the Mariners have a 2014 option on Franklin Gutierrez as well). Michael Bourn at 4/$48M may seem like a bargain when we see the numbers that could be thrown at Ellsbury and Curtis Granderson — who could very well be the only center fielders available via free agency next winter.

Of course, Mets fans need not be concerned about the demand for center fielders if Collin Cowgill or Kirk Nieuwenhuis has a breakout year, or if Matt Den Dekker learns to make more contact.

Yes, we’re getting ahead of ourselves here — not much point worrying about next winter before even know what’s happening on Opening Day. But, it helps to be aware of a situation that will take eight months to develop (and there isn’t much else to write about — until we get more details on David Wright‘s injury).

What’s your thought? Were you hoping to see Carlos Gomez available next winter? Should the Mets be concerned about center field beyond 2013? Do you think the Mets should have tried a bit harder to sign Michael Bourn? Answer in the comments.

Joe Janish began MetsToday in 2005 to provide the unique perspective of a high-level player and coach -- he earned NCAA D-1 All-American honors as a catcher and coached several players who went on to play pro ball. As a result his posts often include mechanical evaluations, scout-like analysis, and opinions that go beyond the numbers. Follow Joe's baseball tips on Twitter at @onbaseball and at the On Baseball Google Plus page.
  1. DaveSchneck March 15, 2013 at 2:50 pm
    I agree with your points. If Gomez has a 2013 consistent with his 2012 performance, he would have been one of the few 2014 FAs that made sense for the Mets. The trend is for more teams to extend their potential FAs through their age 20s seasons. It strikes me that there is a good chance that Alderson will have a lot more money to spend, but only a bunch of “Jason Bays” to spend it on. Not exactly the recipe for surpassing the Nats, Braves, and Phillies. t
    • Joe Janish March 15, 2013 at 3:04 pm
      ” It strikes me that there is a good chance that Alderson will have a lot more money to spend, but only a bunch of “Jason Bays” to spend it on. Not exactly the recipe for surpassing the Nats, Braves, and Phillies.”


      This is the flaw in the plan/theory/excuse/myth that the Mets will be in better position to build a winning ballclub once they have a “more flexible payroll.”

      Alderson has continually made condescending jokes regarding other teams signing less-than-superstars for grossly expensive contracts (i.e., Jayson Werth). Ironically, he could find himself in exactly that situation of over-paying a free agent because that’s the best available option.

      • jason bay March 15, 2013 at 9:36 pm
        That’s the flaw in expecting free agency to solve all your weaknesses every year and making a reach type that clogs payroll and roster spots for years on end only compounds the problem.

        Once every five years or so there is a great guy to sign but Bourn definitely wasn’t that guy and either was Bay, Castillo, Perez, Alou, K-Rod, Wagner, Appier, Cedeno, Weathers or Coleman.

        Spending more than 2 M on OFer’s from 2004-2010 in the draft would have been idea and spending more than 1.2 M on OFer’s internationally during that time frame is another one.

        Going over slot as teams did with Yelich, Stanton, Jackson, Myers, Mason Williams ect is yet another idea.

        Picking up a guy on waivers like De Aza instead of trading for someone else’s reject like Gary Matthews Jr. when Beltran was hurt is another one.

        Making a couple of trades for prospects in other teams farm systems and not resigning or picking up the options on El-Duque, Mota, La Duca, Delgado, Castillo and Tatis and drafting a few OFer’s with those picks might have helped.

        Offering arbitration to Piazza, Leiter, Floyd and Oliver would have gotten some more high draft picks and not trading Wagner and Barajas would have gotten us 3 more.

        There were loads of options before we got to this point but very few when left to the last second and while we may have picked up two good starting pitchers and a catcher we just haven’t had enough to do much with the OF yet. There were too many areas of neglect to fix.

        Somewhere in all those bungled decisions is our OF for the coming years and some where in those free agent listings are the next Jason Bay, Chone Figgins and Carl Crawford.

        • Joe Janish March 17, 2013 at 3:17 pm

          First, ironic that the Mets used to have a player with the same name.

          Second, you are preaching to the choir. I never suggested that the Mets would turn into contender by spending a boatload of money on free agents — and your points make sense.

          However, since Alderson’s arrival, he has stated many times that the Mets need to cut payroll in order to be more flexible. Maybe he means the players will be able to more easily touch their toes if their wallets aren’t so fat, but what’s been inferred by those statements is that by having more “flexibility” the Mets will be able to spend more money. Personally, I think the payroll cuts were necessary so the Wilpons could remain moguls, with “financial flexibility” being a smoke screen / excuse. But, if we play along with the gag, it would appear that the flexibility everyone is salivating over won’t have much value in a market bereft of top talent.

        • Vilos March 17, 2013 at 7:37 pm
          “but whats been inferred by those statements is that by having more flexibility, the mets will be able to spend more money”

          Thats not what I understand from those statements.

          First of all, when Alderson arrives, the Mets salary structure consists of a very high payroll, with a couple of players making big bucks, and the rest very little. To top it off, the big contract players were not producing. They werent even tradeable. To be exact, two were dumped.

          Second of all, along with the flexibility, Alderson emphasized balance within tbe payroll.

          Finally, Alderson stressed the mets operation was losing money.

          Therefore, I understand that contracts coming off the books gives flexibility to construct a balanced payroll, and to wait for opportunities to arise that will strengthen the team.

        • Joe Janish March 17, 2013 at 10:02 pm
          Twelve of this, a dozen of that.

          If you could explain what a “balanced” payroll means, maybe I’ll understand your point.

          Presumably, and put more simply, payroll was cut today so that money could be spent tomorrow. Have I misunderstood?

          The Mets payroll when Alderson took over at the end of 2010 was about $125M. It shot up to about $143M in 2011. He cut it down to about $94M in 2012, it may be around $90M in 2013, and there’s a chance it gets down to a very “flexible” $70M (or lower) going into 2014.

          I would hope that a New York-based Major League sports franchise could handle AT MINIMUM a $100M payroll, which means that Alderson has about $30M to spend going into 2014. Some would argue the payroll should be closer to at least $120M – $130M, considering the revenue opportunities available in the media capital of the world. So, I’m curious what your definition of “balanced payroll” might be. Is it $80M, which would be similar to a “small market” club? Is it closer to $100M? More? Less? What does “balanced” mean?

          Thank you in advance for clarifying.

        • Vilos March 17, 2013 at 10:30 pm
          First of all, I understand a balanced payroll means you have a couple of all stars in the 15 to 20 mm, you have five or six stars in the 10 mm; you then have a mix of upcoming and fillins of 5 mm and the rest are league min.

          Second, I agree with you 100% that a NY based team has to have at least a 100 mm budget. In fact, as you point out, it was higher than that, and in due time I would expect to above that again.


          I can’t answer that question, but the when and the how Alderson rebuilds this franchise is what I find interesting.

        • Vilos March 17, 2013 at 10:40 pm
          A quick folow up remark: what kind of team are we wishing for. The 69 was before me, but is the famous Amazin. The 73 I followed, and it was a Miracle. 86 should have been a dynasty and all I saw of 99-00 was the world series defeat, so I cant comment.

          What do we want for the future?

        • Joe Janish March 18, 2013 at 9:20 am
          Vilos, in response to your question — and to steal a phrase from George Allen — the future is NOW.

          Mets fans have suffered through four straight losing seasons, with a fifth almost a certainty. Anyone who claims to be a fan of the Mets and is still talking about “the future” either has the patience of Job or is too young to appreciate the value of time. Life’s too short to watch bad baseball!

        • Kanehl March 18, 2013 at 1:02 pm
          Joe, If you mean that the Mets should be over .500 in 2013 and a contender in 2014, I don’t see who they could have added to accomplish that from the FA market. Signing Bourne would have been affordable, and maybe bypassing that to keep the #11 pick was a mistake given the absymal OF choices we have. But, how many wins would he have added to the 70, more or less, I see as our 2013 projection? And if we trade 2 or 3 from the pool of Harvey, Wheeler, Niese and Sydergaard (the only valualbe young trade bait we currently have) to get a solid OF or two, what starting rotation does that leave us over the coming years? Given the longer contracts smart teams are giving to take their best talent though their 20s, aren’t the days of abundant FAs of big performance over? Yes, it’s frustrating to say we have to wait unitl 2014-15 to see if our young pitchers are for real and if we have ehough prospects left over to trade for some hitting, but I don’t see the realistic alternative path. We need to hold and develop the few true prospects we have. Remember, the only reason the farm system is rated in the middle of the pack is because 2 trades of aging stars brought us our top 3 prospects. Frankly, I’m more concerned wath questionable draft choices by Team Alderson (Gavin what’s his name as our # 1 pick? Really? Now that would have been a trade slot to trade if that’s the best we can do.) than his failure to sign FAs given the sad state of that talent pool.
        • Vilos March 18, 2013 at 10:08 pm
          Neither one nor the other. …. I would say in between. Age gives you patience, although I agree that watching bad baseball is nothing to look forward to.

          I’m not sure if your demand for a good team right away is an argument to stir comments, as I recently read you consciously do, or if you mean it.

          In any case, although I agree that many steps could have been taken, so as to be in better shape (such as resigning Reyes), as of today, I think its pretty difficult to make such improvements as to expect 82 wins.

          On the other hand, if the season were to take a turn in the ” miracle” fashion, with many players having career years, I would expect Alderson to be more involved in improving the team than the last two years. I would guess that he agrees with you that the sooner the Mets start winning again, the better.

        • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 10:09 pm
          Agree Joe about the financial flexibility being a smoke screen but is that then on Alderson? He can’t come out and say his bosses are broke.

          Financial flexibility in a weak free agent market can also be interpreted to mean extensions for current Mets like what was done with Jon Niese.

          It could also mean trade and signs for players approaching free agency or nearing the end of their “Niese type deal” or even kicking in 5 M in a big trade to sweeten the deal on the other end without giving away talent or depth, holding onto a guy a year or two longer so as not to rush a prospect.

          Lot’s of advantages in not having 140 M riding on April 1st.

  2. Dan B March 15, 2013 at 3:10 pm
    A game plan for acquiring an entirely new outfield should of been started this past offseason. There are no true outfielders in the minors close to moving up. The free agency market seems to be getting slimmer if the Mets have the finances or willingness (how can every free agent be overpriced?) to go that route. And Alderson has stated he doesn’t want to trade pitching prospects. As some point the Mets have to put their major league pants on and spend money and make a trade for a quality outfielder. There is a lot of heavy lifting to be done to make this lineup playoff ready.
    • jason bay March 15, 2013 at 9:49 pm
      I don’t think Alderson has said he doesn’t want to trade pitching prospects. He’s been loading up on them for two years and will have a dozen attractive prospects between Binghamton and Savannah next off season.

      He’s stocked the 40 man roster with so many prospects that he’ll have to slip four or five through before opening day.

      He also has a chance to add to the prospect base with some combination of Johan, Marcum, Buck and some of the relief pitchers but I wouldn’t expect him to trade for just anyone.

      Because of the lack of work done in the draft in previous years we’re are stuck waiting on other teams timelines.

  3. Dan B March 15, 2013 at 4:00 pm
    Joe, you are assuming the Mets will spend money when Santana and Bay come off the books. But players have been coming off the payroll since Beltran and KRod and the money has not been reinvested. Aren’t we all a little afraid that next off season the Mets will, once again, say they are willing to spend money but have some reason not to? What are chances the Mets payroll for 2014 will be under $60 million? I’d say pretty high.
    • Joe Janish March 15, 2013 at 4:44 pm
      No, I am not assuming anything. I am merely reiterating the mantra we’ve been hearing since Alderson was hired. Rather, I agree with you — every year we’re told the Mets need to shed more payroll for flexibility, and yet nothing changes. This is going back to the Oliver Perez / Luis Castillo contracts that were supposedly preventing the Mets from improving.

      At what point do the lemmings wake up and realize it’s a farce?

      Though, I’m sure at least one person will point to David Wright’s monster contract as evidence of the Mets using that “flexibility.”

    • NormE March 15, 2013 at 4:50 pm
      You raise a good point, Dan B.
      Until someone proves to Wilpon and Co. that they will make more money by spending more money I think that they will continue to fund a small city operation.
      The problem, as Dave S. and Joe J. see it, is that there might not be enough viable players on whom to spend the money.
      Someone has to convince the “brain” trust to pump more money into the draft and attract talent. You supplement your home grown talent with outside help—–you don’t get outside help and try to fill in the pieces with a penny pinching minor league operation.
  4. Dan B March 15, 2013 at 5:27 pm
    From your lips to God’s ears, Norm. I have always said the Yankees have high revenue because they spend high meaning they have players people want to see. Don’t want to spend on FA’s? Fine, then invest in the best farm system and lock up your best home growns. Or trade prospects for higher paid major leaguers.
  5. Andrew March 15, 2013 at 6:56 pm
    There’s a lot of time between then and now to figure things out. As maddening as it is, I agree with Sandy’s approach of letting bad contracts expire and gathering prospects for the future. The Knicks had this idea and it was going well until they blew it and mortgaged the future on Carmelo.

    Just as long as the Mets don’t trade half the team next year for A-Roid, they’re pointed in the right direction. This game is about pitching – Carlos Gomez is not a safe investment at all anyway. Jacoby Ellsbury or bust – and the Red Sox typically allow their stars to hit free agency.

    • jason bay March 16, 2013 at 11:25 am
      Carmelo Anthony is a very good analogy.

      True there is no salary cap in MLB but every team has one anyway. It’s called a budget. Ours has gone way down so it’s safe to say we’re at the upper reaches of it. Regardless of how that happened that’s not changing for the foreseeable future.

      One thing we should remember is that the Leiter, Piazza, Delgado and Lo Duca deals were primarily options to us because we didn’t have any albatross contracts on the books when opportunity came knocking.

      Mcilvaine had cleared the payroll for us in 1998 and Duquette had cleared it in 2004. That’s what allowed the Mets to take on that salary.

      Had we signed Victorino and Ross those financial commitments would simply keep us from being able to add payroll from better and younger players later and at their ages and expected levels of production they are untradeable themselves.

  6. Dan B March 15, 2013 at 9:03 pm
    Andrew, I admire your optimism but don’t follow your logic. The NBA has a salary cap, ML does not. Trading away bad contracts (like the Red Sox and the Marlins), even if it involves adding money, is better then letting them expire. And, lastly, isn’t a low contract for a bad player just as bad as a bad contract for a bad player? It is not like the team is giving discounts out on tickets now that we don’t get to see Beltran, KRod, Castillo, Bay, Delgado, etc…
    • jason bay March 15, 2013 at 9:55 pm
      No team in MLB is playing OFer’s that were drafted in 2011 or 2012. It takes time to develop them and alderson has gotten two damn good looking starting pitchers and a catcher.

      It’s unrealistic to think he could have addressed the OF and bullpen as well with such a weak farm system to work with in the 27 months he’s been here.

      • DaveSchneck March 16, 2013 at 8:03 am
        Jason and Andrew,
        We are not expecting Alderson to come up with Trout and Harper this winter. There will be 90 starting OF in MLB on opening day. The Mets will field 3 that probably place no better than 80th to 90th. That is pathetic and the responsibility of the GM. We are not opposed to burning off bad contracts and builing the minors. Our point is that this can be done and is done by teams that consitently win at the same time that they field solid MLB teams year i ad year out. Should the Mets put up 70 something wins this year, it will be the 5th losing season in a row, using the same “blueprint” as the Pirates, who have 20 in a row. Lastly, for those “waiting” on the prospects, Sickels top 150 list has 5, count them 5, starters rated better than our savior Zack Wheeler. Are all 6 of these guys going to be Cy Youngers? The prospect dependence is a high risk game.
        • jason bay March 16, 2013 at 10:19 am
          I hardly think the Mets have been using the same blueprint as the Pirates. Did Pittsburgh spend 66 million on a LFer in 2010?

          Is Alderson to be held accountable for the Mets being under .500 in 2009 and 2010?

          When you look at HOW teams were able to acquire what appears to be really good solutions for their OF this season you find that it was primarily the work they did in years past that allowed them to bring those players in.

          Prado (IFA 2001) was a central figure in the Upton deal and Delgado ( IFA 2006) was a 2nd big part . Two 2nd round picks from 2010 and 2011 were other pieces.

          Did we have those type of pieces to make a comparable offer?

          How about Myers? How did Tampa get him? James Shields (2000 draft) and Wade Davis (2004 draft) How many guys we have from 2000 – 2004 that have any trade value? Wright and Elvin Ramirez, that’s it.

          How did Washington get Span (1st rnd 2007) ? Top 40-60 pitching prospect drafted in the 1st round 2011 Alex Meyer. You Want to give up Fulmer +?

          How did Philly get Revere (1st rnd 2007) ? Vince Worley (3rd rnd 2008 and top (50-70) pitching prospect Trevor May (4th round 2008)

          How did Toronto make their big deal with Miami? Nicolino top 70-90 prospect from the 2nd round and Marisnick top 60-70 3rd round over slot plus Hechevarria (IFA 2010) and Alverez (IFA 2006)

          We spent a lot of those draft picks on Wagner, Alou, K-Rod and Bay and failed to take back picks back on guys we resigned like Mota, Lo Duca, Delgado, Tatis, El-Duque, Alou, Valentin and Perez that could have gotten us some of those top 50-80 prospects that would have allowed us to makes those sorts of trades or eliminated the need to make them.

          In addition we could have offered arb and picked up picks for guys we let go in Leiter, Piazza, Floyd and Oliver. Teams made deals with guys like that all the time. We took nothing. Selling Wagner cost us 2 picks and Barajas another one.

          De Aza was available on waivers the off season we traded for Gary Matthews Jr. Gomez was included in the Santana deal, Nelson Cruz was shipped out years ago.

          Cinn got Choo (IFA 2000) but they gave up Stubbs.(1st round 2006) and Didi Gregorious (IFA 2007)

          Oakland got Chris Young but it cost a Major League SS (Pennington 1st rnd 2005) and Yordy Cabrera (2nd rnd 2010)

          Notice a trend here? The teams that were able to make these moves gave up guys they drafted in the 1st-4th rounds and top 100 prospects in the 40-80 range.

          In addition most of the guys they got were drafted in those same rounds themselves, something we could have done in the first place. We haven’t hit on a 2nd rounder since 1987 and only one 3rd or 4th rounder since 1999 and he was already traded (Joe Smith)

          The only 2nd rounders we still have alive are Matz and Mazzoni. 3rd rounders are Kirk, Shields, Forsythe, Verrett and Koch. 4th rounders Ceciliani, Vaughn, Pill and Kaupe.

          Verrett, Koch, Pill and Kaupe are too young to know what their value’s are but do you think any of the others are getting Span, Revere, Young, Myers or Upton? Are any of our IFA’s getting them? Familia, Flores,Tovar, Mejia, Aderlain, Pena and Urbina,

          For us that would have meant moving Ike, Harvey or Wright period as we have no other 1st-4th rounders that have any value nor do we have any prospects to spare in the top 100 unless you want to ship out Wheeler, d’Anaurd and Syndergaard.

          Face the facts. Teams addressed their OF with highly regarded prospects from their farm close to the Majors many of whom are top 100 prospects and former 1st-4th rnd draft picks. Who do we have? Flores doesn’t even have a position and the vast majority of pitching prospects just completed A+ – A- ball and NONE are ranked in the top 100. Waiting a year gets them a chance to return more than pennies on the pound and allows us to get MUCH better players.

          Other than that what other options were there? Victorino at 3/39 M, Ross at 3/26 M, Bourn at 4/48 M and Hamilton at 5/125 M. Sure one of those guys may have looked good on paper but so did Mo Vaughn. So did Moises Alou and so did Jason Bay,

          You can cross off Hamilton for sure and forget Bourn with the draft pick comp, poor performance Vs. LHP and length of his deal. Swisher with the draft comp as well and you that leaves with two guys if they wanted to come here in the first place. Ross and Victorino for 3 years each.

          Ross a product of Fenway who has hit like **** everywhere else since 2010 and is nothing more than a platoon RFer and Victorino who would have helped a little but also would have prevented us from getting better for the longterm by clogging up payroll and squatting on a roster spot for 2 off seasons.

          Who wants these guys for their age 32-34 seasons? If we signed one of them who’s roster spot do they get? We already have to try to slip 4-5 guys through waivers at the close of ST as it is so who’s spot do you give them?

          Yeah we could have gotten a little better for the short term by signing one of those guys but is that the goal? To get a little better for a short time?

          I think you’ve set the bar way too low. The goal is to get a lot better for a long time even if it takes a little longer because of the horrendous job done in the draft the last decade.

        • DaveSchneck March 16, 2013 at 4:56 pm
          You make many valid points. I will take your advice and face some facts:
          1. The Mets entire starting infield (when healthy), opening day pitcher, day 2 starter, and opening day closer this season are all “home grown”. all were provided by prior regimes. On the basis of these facts, the statement that Alderson has to rebuild a destitute system is not accurate based on these facts
          2. Alderson is responsible for the 2013 OF, and will be for the 2014 OF. He is being paid a 7-figure salary to produce a winner in NYC. I agree that signing average OFers in declining years is not optimal, but there is no excuse for not finding ONE MLB legit OF for 2013.
          3. The cheapest opening day ticket this year is $63.
          4. The Pittsburgh Pirates did’t sign Jason Bay for $66 mil. Neither did Alderson. The Pirates did spend more on FA Russell Martin than Alderson has spent on total FA signings in 3 seasons.
          5.The Mets #2 pick in 2012 won’t amount to anything either, because the “build the system” regime was too cheap to sign him.

          I am of the opinion that those patting Alderson on the back are setting the bar too low.

        • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 9:15 am
          You really have to define what the goal is.

          If the goal is to just spend a pile of money then argument # 4 is relevant.

          If the goal is ticket prices in line with the product then argument #3 is relevant.

          If the goal is to build a team capable of winning 90+ games for a decade or more than neither of those arguments have any merit at all.

          It is players that win games. Players who play well for many years all here together at the same time.

          Niese, Gee and Harvey for the rotation are certainly good examples. Parnell at closer, I’m not so sure about. Ike may very well need a platoon mate, Murph defensive help, Wright was drafted acquired 12 years ago, Thole plugged in only because there was no one else, Duda a first basemen plugged in because there was no one else. Edgin a potentially nice piece. Carson, McHugh, Schwinden, Gorski, Kirk, Spin, MDD, Vaughn, Ceciliani, Harris who knows.

          There a bunch of guys who made it up through an extremely weak farm system and are being auditioned here there and where ever in the hopes they may be able to do something but these types are available in the off season every year for nothing.

          Not so with the Trouts’s, McCutchen’s, Heyward’s, Myers’, Austin’s, ect. Those guys you have to go out and get ahead of time and those types aren’t found in our farm system very often.

        • Joe Janish March 18, 2013 at 10:39 am
          Weren’t there free-agent OFs available in the winters following 2010 and 2011? Was Scott Hairston really the best the Mets could do on the free-agent market in three years of shopping? The dearth of OF prospects was just as obvious three years ago as it is now — the current situation should not be a surprise. Duda, Nieuwenhuis, Den Dekker, etc. were all marginal prospects.

          Additionally, the Angel Pagan trade was a massive blunder, and helped create this travesty. Even if Pagan turns out to be a dud over the next four years, he’s still better than what the Mets received in return.

        • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 11:37 pm
          Kirk, Lucas and MDD are marginal prospects because two of them were significant under slot selections and the other came from an NAIA baseball program.

          Those three combined cost less than half to sign (550 M) than Heyward or Trout cost on their own. One wasn’t even an OFer but was moved out there as were Samuel, Hojo, Hundley, Evans, Murphy, Spin, Lagares, Harris, and now Lutz and Turner.

          What other team in major league baseball drafts the cheapest possible OFer’s and then has to keep moving infielders and catchers out there? Only one, the Mets and they’ve been doing it for close to a quarter of a century.

  7. Walnutz15 March 16, 2013 at 6:41 am
    There’s a pretty simple reason why Carlos Gomez (and Bora$, for that matter) was okay with foregoing Free Agency:

    Almost $7MM/per is a pretty safe bet for a guy coming off a career year…just barely cracking a .300 OBP%.

    Any injury problems surface at all….and he probably doesn’t get that next winter. Essentially, they’re banking on major improvement from 2012, and I’m not sure that’s in him.

    Upon reviewing the breakdown of the “new” money being doled out to Gomez, I like it even less than I did a few days ago.

    He’ll make $4.3MM in 2013, which is fine.

    2014: $7MM
    2015: $8MM
    2016: $9MM

    Not money that’s gonna kill ya, provided you’re an actual big league team…..however, it’s not far off from what you’re giving a guy like Angel Pagan —- who actually has a track record of consistently getting on base at the Major League-level.

    (And really, I could have either taken or left Pagan by the time it came to the end of his Met tenure….just wish there was a better offer out there for him than Torres/Ramirez.)

    The whole salary structure of MLB is shot to sheet.

    Truth be told, I liked the look of Gomez’s game the most of the young outfield flops the Mets were hanging their hat on back in the day. I was there at Yankee Stadium in 2007 for his leaping rob of a HR in LF, and thought he had the tools to become the kind of “successful” outfielder he is today……however:

    – His whole “career year” last year was based off a strong second half. It wasn’t even for a full season.

    – The mental lapses on the basepath are still there for him at 27; and

    – He still has a tremendous amount of work to do toward becoming a consistent threat at the plate. For me, that’d have to develop – for me to ever feel “comfortable” doling out this kind of money to a player like Gomez.

    – He K’s a ton and rarely walks.

    At this rate, you’re overpaying him for his defensive services in CF – and asking him to pop out HR’s at the rate he did in 2012…..which as much as I like him, doubt happens again. Pitchers adjust to flawed hitters.

    And again, this isn’t even touching a situation where he pops a hammy or something…..

    Guess I just have to accept that “complete” ballplayers who can actually hit, run, and fundamentally field their position are few and far between these days.

    • jason bay March 16, 2013 at 10:58 am
      The vast majority of OFer’s who can hit ,run and play defense are found in the 1st, 2nd and supplemental rounds of the draft. Failing that their available with over slot selections like Austin Jackson, Mason Williams, Wil Myers and Jake Marisnick.

      The Mets only went overslot (and barely) for pitchers. Matz, Goedell, Peavey and Dotson and gave away tons of 1st and 2nd round picks for OFer’s or other positions of neglect in the last decade and those guys are all gone and left nothing behind.

      Zeile, Appier, Weathers, Floyd, Pedro, Wagner, Alou, K-Rod and Bay cost 1st or 2nd round picks and we only drafted one OFer since 2003 with a 2nd round pick (Javier Rodriguez) and one with a 3rd rounder (Kirk)

      Internationally we’ve only signed two OFer’s from 2000-2010. Gomez and Fern.

      We could have cashed in type A or B free agents like Valentin, Mota, El-Duque, Alou, lo Duca, Delgado, Perez, Tatis and Castillo instead of resigning them or picking up their options and drafted some pretty good OFer’s instead we got nothing except for any of them when they left.

      We could have cut a deal to offer arb to Leiter, Piazza, Floyd and Oliver to get us some picks where OFer’s can be found but you can see the Organizations direction by selling 3 #1 picks for Chris Carter and cash in the Wagner and Barajas deals. They don’t want to pay them. They want to take their chances on Kirk (360K) MDD (110 K) Duda (85 K) Vaughn (240 K) and Ceciliani (204 K) and say “hey we tried, these guys just didn’t work out.”

      From 2004-2010 the Met spent a TOTAL of 2 million dollars on OFer’s in the draft and not even 1 M on catchers in the draft (only one 3rd rounder Forsythe 2010)

      Those players are out there. Other teams get them. Trout, McCutchen, Stanton, Jones, Heyward, Span, Revere, Braun, Harper, Hamilton, Murphy, Swisher, Beltran Hunter and Eithier were from the 1st or 2nd round. Most of them were available if we had kept our pick or not spent it on some college relief pitcher., we just didn’t bother and now are paying the price.

      Other teams have had lots of top 100 prospects with which to go out and get guys we could have drafted ourselves. We didn’t. Any OFer’s of any quality are either traded or locked up before hitting free agency and without much to trade all that’s left are the one’s no one really wants or they prefer the draft pick.

      What does that tell you?

      • Vilos March 16, 2013 at 12:53 pm
        Great posts, thanks!

        A quick question: what makes you think Alderson and co will do it differently? Have they drafted any outfilders in their two drafts in charge? Whats your take?

        Thanks again for the great post. This year, its obvious tbe FO punted, therefore our main discussion will be if we’re going in the right direction or not.

        • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 10:32 pm
          Thanks Vilos.

          As for the OF Alderson has not done a great job in the draft or international free agency but I don’t want him drafting for need either. Still and all Internationally OF should have gotten some more attention than it did.

          This year’s draft is shaping up as a very strong one for high school catchers. That is a hard piece to procure and I would not pass up Reece McGuire if we have the opportunity.

          I see the OF being addressed by two off season deals to fix two spots with the other cobbled together with a platoon of in house options.

          The bait? Whatever prospects we’re able to get from a combination of Johan, Marcum, Buck, some of the older relievers, Gee, Flores or perhaps even Ike and going with a platoon of Duda and Flores at 1B.

          If those OF acquisitions have enough shelf life the system should have enough time to catch up with a little restructuring here and there.

          When you look at trades he did make would you prefer Gary Brown or Zack Wheeler? Jake Marisnick or Noah Syndergaard? I think he did the right thing there, getting the better player. It’s frustrating but we couldn’t get Myers but catcher was the biggest and most difficult piece to get.

          Guys I would target include for RF Tyler Austin Mikie Mahtook, Drew Vettleson, and Kyle Parker CF Jackie Bradley, Mason Williams, Aaron Hicks and Wil Myers. LF Oswaldo Arcia.

          I think it’ll get done and done with the best possible options and not just for the short term but that probably means piecing it together till the right options are available.

        • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 10:34 pm
          Pitching prospects as trade bait as well for at least one of the new OF imports.
      • Walnutz15 March 18, 2013 at 9:19 am
        “Those players are out there. Other teams get them.”

        Of course. I should have added the suffix, “when it comes to ballclubs funded by the Wilpon family.”

        This team hasn’t seen a legit outfield prospect drafted since the flood. They go for “safe” pitching, which is typically the furthest thing from it by the time the system ruins them.

  8. Dan B March 16, 2013 at 6:00 pm
    JB, you bring up interesting ideas, some I agree with and some I don’t. For example, your Knick/Met analogy is still wrong and your assumption that a salary cap is equal to a team’s budget is wrong. Salary caps are artifical caps on spending on all NBA teams which, being artificial, create unique ramifications much different from a budget which is unique to each individual team and arbitrary. Salary caps create the bizarre situation when an expiring contract, even one for a bad player, has value. The teams acquire and then let contracts expire for the sole purpose of being able to spend more money. The Mets let bad contracts expire for the sole purpose of spending less. The Knicks sought to improve the team via expiring contracts. The Mets sought to pay off debt. Also, you seem to put more faith onto Sandy Alderson than I do. I am not an Alderson hater like some here, I just believe that the Wilpons are controlling more of the operations then you believe. Their financial planning and valuing can be seen all over Alderson’s moves. For example, as you point out, the Mets have had a history of not investing financially or intellectually in their farm system. I still think that to be the case despite what Alderson says. I point to the curious results of drafting and signing of amateur players under Alderson. I also point out the continual lack of trades under Alderson of MLB players for prospects (the two exceptions saving the Mets significant money). I also don’t accept the Mets’ current budget as being unchangeable. The Wilpons can change their budget any time they want. They have chosen to cut their budget until all of their loans are refinanced (mostly like June of 2014). They are, and should be, open for criticism. Also, I can understand your belief that All Star outfielders are easier to obtain via draft, but that is not the only way. Teams trade away All Stars all the time when the player is overpaid or when they are seeking prospects. But I think what a lot of people here are angry with is the lack of imagination by this front office in acquiring at least one average outfielder. Would you been upset if the Mets signed Bourne and didn’t have to give up a draft choice? By not appealing to the MLB to protect their draft choice, they gave themselves no chance to sign him. But at least they saved money.
    • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 10:57 pm
      Those two trades didn’t save any money.

      Beltran could have been exchanged for salary relief a lot easier than Billy Wagner was and yet the Mets paid the full boat on Carlos. The RA deal was even for 2013 payroll wise although the two players we got should be a bargain for 6 years and Buck will be off but do you think that was the only consideration? I don’t. I don’t think it was even the primary one. Let me ask you this, how else were we going to get a good catcher? How would you have addressed the position?

      The Lohse / Gee idea is a good one. If it includes giving up a #1 pick though I’m out. Span and Revere were late 1st round picks and the players traded for them were all top 100 prospects. Punting all those picks that we could have had is why we have nothing to trade now. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to keep doing the same things that got us into this mess.

      Gee and Flores might have been a reasonable offer and either Span and Revere would help some now but are either of them in your dream OF?

      i don’t mind waiting another year and seeing an increase in value of the pitching prospects a level higher than they were this year and I don’t mind seeing another year out of any of the OFer’s we control in the minors or on the 25 to see if they could help obtain someone.

      It’s the lack of work done in the past decade that has put the 2013 OF in place and that is due to the cheapness in the draft. Incomplete one dimensional under slot selections and that was long before Alderson got here.

      If the Mets weren’t pinching pennies all those years ago we would have some OFer’s here and wouldn’t have had to trade Dickey for a catcher.

      The following players could easily have been drafted with the picks sold in the Wagner deal. Christian Yelich, Gary Brown, Zack Cox, Kyle Parker, Jesse Biddle, Asher Wojciechowski, Drew Vettleson, Taijuan Walker, Mike Olt, and Nick Castllanos.

      Those are the types of players we need either to come up and perform or to use in targeting the best possible options. The players/prospects we have aren’t in that category.

      • Walnutz15 March 19, 2013 at 8:43 am
        That’s why I’ll always reflect upon that Wagner deal, and be livid — from the second it occurred.

        It was a disgraceful act by The Wilpons, all to save a couple of million dollars…..and in the process, acquiring a redundant Chris Carter; and non-starter that retired not even a year after he got there, in Eddie Lora.


        • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 9:39 am
          The trade of Wagner in order to save on his salary and buyout and avoid having to spend on the signing bonuses is the most transparent example of Wilpon cheapness out of their hundreds of skinflint moves over the last two decades and is exhibit A in what Alderson has to overcome here.

          66 M for Bay but nothing for 1st rounders that could be All Stars for years to come.

          Even if you wanted to throw away 1st-2nd round picks for window dressing you still could have gone over slot like the Yankees did with Austin Jackson (8th round, 800 K) or Mason Williams (4th round, 1.45 M) or Toronto did with Marisnick (3rd round, 1 M) or KC did with Myers (3rd round, 2 M) but the reality is even before Madoff the Mets were dumping draft picks and selecting slot or under slot selections and with no money we are now left to give those players who were valued much less highly than everyone else’s every chance and it is unrealistic to think that a guy like MDD at 110 K or Lucas at 85 K (and playing out of position) is going to match Adam Jones, Austin Jackson, Mike Trout, Wil Myers or Jason Heyward.

          Might happen here or there but the reality is that 21 of the 25 guys the Mets did spent money on from 2005-2010 have busted or have no value and two of the ones that did hit are gone.

          That leaves us reliant on the under slots and that’s a recipe for disaster.

  9. John D March 17, 2013 at 4:45 pm
    Regarding the trade/free agent market, I think that Alderson is doing best he can under the financial constraints imposed by the Wilpons. Getting Wheeler, d’Arnaud, and Snydergaard for Beltran and Dickey will prove to be coups, I believe. I don’t believe there is any financial flexibility, despite Fred’s recent statements. The Madoff situation and the economic downturn left the Wilpons with one source of income – SNY – where they used to have three – SNY, their commericail real estate business and the Madoff money. Also, the economy has probably turned the bond payments into a millstone around their necks, given their attendance problems and the current need to discount tickets. (When they planned for the stadium in the flush 90’s they probably thought it would print money for them.) This lack of income explains most of their recent moves – dumping Wagner for AAA talent – avoiding paying out his contract and having to pay bonuses to the 1st and 2nd round picks they could have gotten if they offered him arb; letting Reyes walk, etc., Even signing Wright. They couldn’t risk alienating the fans more and watch attendance plummet if they traded him or he walked at the end of the year. The Wilpons are the ones to blame for this debacle, not Alderson.

    However, on the draft front Alderson can be fairly criticized. Of the Baseball America top 100 prospects – Zero! – originated in the Mets organization. Two drafts should have produced a couple of top 100 guys. Hopefully Nimmo or Pawlecky and some of the pitchers will develop into quality major leaguers, but clearly, more talent is needed.

    • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 12:02 pm
      OK on Alderson’s drafts and top 100 prospects there are 30 guys from the 2011 and 2012 drafts in the top 100.

      18 of them were not obtainable by the Mets. they were gone before we picked. That leaves 12, 11 if you don’t include Giolito as an injury risk. Of those 12 we could have only selected a maximum of 5 of them.

      Say 2011 we went Fernandez, Story, Hedges, Cingrani.

      2012 we could have gone Hawkins, Giolito or Wacha .

      OK we would have these other guys but at the expense of Nimmo, Fulmer, Mazzoni, Verrett and Cecchini so while that certainly appears to be a worthwhile trade off at the moment they are all so young and who’s to say what the list might look like next year.

      You have to also keep in mind that the scouting infastructure had to be rebuilt and I’m sure isn’t even close to being the way Alderson wants it to be as scouts he may like to hire are probably still under contract with other organizations. His first Scouting Director accepted an Asst. GM position and I highly doubt the Mets had any kind of a coherent scouting system in place when he arrived.

      If your actively getting rid of your best draft picks even before Madoff, selling other one’s for DH’s and cash, not taking one’s back when you have the opportunity why would you have a large budget devoted to scouting?

      this is all supposition on my part but of the 25 guys that the previous FO spent the most money on 21 have no value or busted. Some of those scouts are probably still here under contract because the Mets aren’t going to replace them and pay someone else.

      The reality is that Alderson has some draft picks that are really moving, while Minaya’s were products of weak farm systems and seemingly stalled in A- or A+.

      Alderson did luck out with a very strong first year draft class and we may look back on that with regret who knows but the book isn’t even closed on Minaya so how can we forming conclusions about Alderson’s drafts?

      It’s not about any one guy anyway. It’s about the system as a whole and Alderson has made an incredible effort to protect some of the players Minaya acquired putting guys as low as SS ball on the 40 where as Minaya never really gave any inherited prospects much of a chance and lost a few through roster bungling.

      We will see in time but at least the guys he has drafted have the talent to play well in all aspects of the game not just in one or two areas so if they do make it, they won’t need a platoon mate, defensive caddy or pinch runner.

  10. Dan B March 18, 2013 at 6:33 am
    Joe, 2014’s payroll is looking more like $40-45 million with current contracts plus raises. To get to $70 million, that would mean adding almost $30 million in one year- a lot of money for the Mets, especially considering the free agency class. For the Mets to get to $120 million means adding almost $80 million per year. I worry about the Mets approach in adding contracts almost as much as I have been worried about their approach to shed contracts.
    • DaveSchneck March 18, 2013 at 8:27 am
      Once again, you hit the nail on the head with these comments and the one above. Like you, I have been Alderson-neutral, but to date he has been nothing but a PT Barnum. I won’t rehash the details, but the bottom line is that you or I could have acquired Wheeler, d’Arnaud, and Syndergaard, as those acquisitions were based solely on the opposing GM’s decision, not Alderson’s. Otherwise, he has basically done nothing. I am sounding more like Izzy every day.
      • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 11:18 pm
        totally incorrect about anyone being able to make the Wheeler, d’Anaurd, Syndergaard kind of deal. If it were that easy why didn’t some other GM beat Alderson to the punch?

        The Mets got better talent for Dickey, Thole and Nickeas than Miami got for Reyes, Johnson, Burherle and Bonafacio. If anyone could have done that why didn’t the Marlins? Why didn’t Towers or Cashman or Daniels? Why didn’t Philly when they traded Lee? Why didn’t AA when he traded Halliday? Why didn’t Cleveland when they traded CC?

        The Dickey deal was a great trade. other GM’s couldn’t believe it. It has the chance to be linked with the Colon, Texeira and Garza deals as some of the best in recent memory.

        The Beltran trade wasn’t one anyone could have made either. If it was with no compensation due as a floor why was Alderson able to get the Giants best prospect, a guy they gave a 6 M dollar bonus to? How was Minaya with 2 comp picks as a floor only able to get a useless player for Billy Wagner? Smith, Vargas, Heilman, Chavez ect for Putz? Lindstrom and Bell for Ben Johnson?

        Alderson benefitted from a strong market for Beltran and a bit of good fortune with McCann going down and Chipper re injuring himself but there were other options out there. Pence and Bourn.

        Anyway you shake it out Alderson did a great job with those two trades and not anyone could have made them, certainly not any of us.

        • DaveSchneck March 19, 2013 at 9:11 am
          I guess we can agree to disagree. Before you erect the statue of Alderson, just remember these facts:
          1. the winner and loser of each trade is yet to be determined, as Wheeler, d’Arnaud, and Syndergaard have yet to play in the majors
          2. Alderson received each prospect because the opposing GM was willing to give them up. On virtually every trade ever consummated in MLB history, the asking price is negotiated down. Yes, Alderson made GOOD trades by being patient. What Omar did 5 years ago with Jeffy twisting his arm is irrelavent. At least 20 of the 30 current GMs could have made the deals Alderson did blindfolded and gagged
          3. In the Beltran/Wheeler deal, Alderson won the staring contest. However, had Sabean decided no-go on Wheeler, Alderson certainly would have settled something else as the Mets had no $ to resign Beltran and would get no compensation when he left
          4. Regarding the Dickey trade, the Mets MAY have gotten more than the Marlins, time will tell. Remember that Toronto was willing to part with d’Arnaud on the basis of the acquisitions from the Marlins, since they were “closer” and Dickey was the missing piece. Dickey was also the reigning Cy Young winner and accepted a “below market” contract, so again, sorry, but I’m pretty sure I could have made that trade
        • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 10:15 am

          But then why didn’t Colleti? He needs a catcher and has good starting pitching. Why didn’t Tampa? They have pitching and need a catcher. Why didn’t Minaya? We’ve needed a catcher for a long time.

          When Minaya arrived he had plenty of good pieces to use to get good long term solutions and his perceived strength was in young player evaluation.

          He inherited Leiter, Benson, Glavine, Bannister, Humber, Trachsel, Lindstrom, Bell, Heilman, Stanton, Feliciano, Looper, Owens, Piazza, Vance Wilson, Jacobs, Matsui, Keppinger, Reyes, Wright, Floyd, Cameron, Gomez, Pagan, Milledge, Hildago, Diaz and Evans.

          He didn’t get us any top catching prospects. Castro, Schneider, Barajas, Blanco, and Thole. He didn’t get us any OFer’s either. Green, Church, Francouer, Mathews Jr., Alou, Beltran, Bay, Rodriguez, Vaughn, Kirk, Fern, Duda and MDD.

          If anyone could have done it why didn’t Minaya? He inherited enough and a low payroll to boot. He spent #1 picks on closers Wagner, K-Rod, Holt, Vineyard and Kunz and a 40 year old OFer. He spent a lot of 2nd round picks on starting pitching Pedro, Mulvey, and OFer’s Rodriguez and Bay. He spent a lot of 3rd round picks on college relief pitchers, Smith, Rustich, Niesen and Clyne but nothing on OFer’s and catchers.

          Most of all these decisions didn’t work out because he just took the easy way out. Signed who ever was available without even looking elsewhere.

          He signed Alou and Castillo in November before the non tenders even came out. He signed Torrealba and then had to backtrack when Washington called about Milledge. anything that did work out for the most part was money driven because he inherited a low payroll. Beltran, Delgado and Santana.

          If it was so easy why didn’t he get us younger and more athletic?

    • Joe Janish March 18, 2013 at 10:27 am
      I was being generous, and mildly hopeful.
  11. Dan B March 18, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    Dave, I give Alderson credit for the Beltran and Dickey trades but within the context of trading away one of our best position players and our best pitcher. Under Alderson, the Mets lost three of their top four players and did not replace them with anyone the marginal fan wants to pay to see while they wait for minor leaguers develop.
  12. Dan B March 18, 2013 at 1:10 pm
    Kanehl, I believe in any offseason there are only a few opportunities to do something big. The Met’s chance was blown when they didn’t appeal to MLB to keep their #11 pick. If they were successful, they could of picked up Bourne for under market value (Moneyball!) Or gotten Lohse under market value and traded Gee for outfield help. Then next offseason the Mets pick up another piece and start adding young pitchers. But they have to start adding pieces at some point, why wait? It is not like all the prospects, if they make it, will be ready at once and the Mets can add all the other pieces at once. Why not take the first step now?
    • jason bay March 18, 2013 at 11:28 pm
      21 of the Mets most expensive 25 draft choices from 2005-2010 have either busted or have no real value or in two cases (Pelfrey and Joe Smith) have moved on.

      That leaves Harvey and Ike and this is the guys that the Mets did spend money on. Sure it’s great that Gee, Edgin, Murphy, Niese and Parnell can provide some solid performance but Thole, Duda, Kirk, Schwinden, McHugh even at ages old for prospects haven’t done much positive and who’s kicking *** in the farm? Vaughn? Mulvey? Rodriguez? Holt? Havens? Kunz? Vineyard? Moviel? Dotson? Matz? Rustich? Niesen? Forsythe? Shields?

      That’s where the money was spent and that’s why we have nothing to trade right now.

      • TexasGusCC March 19, 2013 at 12:18 am
        Jason, you are rolling tonight. However, I have a question for the bloggers:

        Was not trading Reyes the idea of Alderson or Wilpon? I think Wilpon.

        Was dissing Dickey after the Christmas party Alderson or Wilpon? Again, I think Wilpon.

        Was leaving Mike Piazza out of the Hall of Fame Alderson or Wilpon?

        I think blaming Alderson, who is a smart guy, for stupid things is like blaming crops for not growing in the desert.

        • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 10:19 am
          I agree Tex. The Wilpon’s have been way too involved to the detriment of the team, just look at the Wagner deal.

          Would any GM trade two 1st round picks for Chris Carter? This was a guy who was going to be taken off the 40 in a few months.

      • DaveSchneck March 19, 2013 at 9:28 am
        I agree with your point, but remmeber that Minaya was operating with an ownership that would not go “overslot”, so on many of his top two picks, the Mets “settled” on a lesser player willing to sign on slot. I also give credit for guys like Niese, Parnell, Gee, regardless of the round, since the draft/system produced these contributors. Lastly, how did Alderson do with the #2 pick last year?
        • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 10:43 am
          Yes the over slot issue was a huge hurdle but Minaya had to know that if he wasn’t going to be allowed to go over then he couldn’t also give up FIVE 1st and 2nd round picks for free agents including one he didn’t even have to (Alou)

          He also had to know that he would have to turn guys loose in order to pick up supplemental round picks and while I am sure it was the Wilpon’s not offering arb to Leiter, Piazza, Oliver and Floyd it was Minaya who punted the picks that Mota, Lo Duca, El-Duque, Valentin, Delgado, Alou, Tatis, Castillo and Perez would have left behind and all those guys either sucked, got hurt or both

          That’s 16 picks right there and you can add to that 3 in the Wagner and Barajas sell offs and five more in the guys not offered arb. That’s 24 1st – 2nd rounders even at slot would have had this team stuffed to the gills and there were plenty of slot selection choices available in those rounds like Mike Trout for instance.

          Later round guys like Eaton and Austin were available and internationally he only signed two OFer’s for any sort of money. Fern 1.2 M and Lupo 500 K.

          As for Niese that was a damn good pick. Parnell, not bad. Gee the kind of guy every team hits on once every 6 years or so. The Yankees got Pettite and Posada in the 20’s. If you want to throw a parade throw it for the guy who drafted those two near HOFer’s in the 20’s.

          As for the 2nd rounder I know what happened there. The Mets signed as much pitching as they could use in the minors and decided to put the money they got back into the 2013 draft because they had no place to put a high school pitcher with the Gulf coast League shut down and you can hardly blame Alderson for that one.

          Anticipating that issue would have been wise and using it for a college OFer would have been worthwhile but this is a good example of problems the Mets have that other teams don’t. What was he to do cut Urbina, Morris or Dotson or keep them and put the money into 2013?

  13. Dan B March 19, 2013 at 12:09 pm
    There is debate over Alderson but most seem to agree the Wilpons hurt the Mets. So this whole discussion can be summed up with one question– “Do you think Sandy Alderson is talented enough as a GM to overcome having the Wilpons, especially Jeffy, as owners?”. Personally, I don’t dislike Alderson but I don’t think he matches well enough to overcome the Wilpons. I hope I am wrong. I am amazed by how many of us cite the Wagner trade as the beginning of the end. But I don’t think the problem is that the Wilpons are cheap. Greedy owners tend to win because winning teams make money. I just think they make short sighted decisions. They are constantly tripping over a dollar to pick up a dime.
    • DaveSchneck March 19, 2013 at 1:34 pm
      I basically agree with your summary. In addition to playing hard and hustling despite his hitting troubles, Jason Bay makes a lot of good points above. The discussion turned a little into Omar vs. sandy, which was not the intent, but the bottom line is that it is and continues to be difficult to separate the GM from ownership, and this ownership seems to negatively impact the GM more than positively impacting the GM. I know Alderson is intelligent and more than capable, I just think he has performed so so to day, and very disappointing this offseason. Others see it differently and that’s what makes it interesting.
    • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 6:03 pm
      When your running things on a shoestring you may very well have to do things in a shortsighted fashion. The Wilpon’s primary business model is quick return on investment. That precludes the draft and tilts toward the free agent.

      By making the big back page splash the wilpon’s have actually gotten a lot in the form of ticket renewals and single games sales before they even have to start paying it out in April and they get it even if the player busts. Not so with the draft choice.

      Alderson is more than capable of eliminating interfearance from ownership. He’s already turned around long standing policies in going over slot back when you could and looking for difference makers by including cash instead of looking for salary relief. He’s also somewhat more insulated with JP and Depo and if anything the Wilpon’s need him way more than he needs them.

      If as many people think Alderson does become Commissioner down the road he knows where the bodies are buried and that alone will keep the Wilpon’s at bay.

  14. Dan B March 19, 2013 at 2:10 pm
    Hey Jason, how do you explain Alderson’s 2012 draft where less then half of the players were signed? Including a high percentage of top 25 picks? Also, I have read a lot about scouts and minor league officials being fired and less about them being replaced. Is the perception that the Mets are cutting costs in the minors true? Geez, I bet Carlos Gomez’s agent is wondering why some Met blog has over 50 responses to a story about him.
    • jason bay March 19, 2013 at 5:52 pm

      He is a guy I was interested in though.

      Where were they going to play them with the GCL team closed down? They didn’t even have room for all the pitchers they already had in Kingsport. Those teams have roster limits just like the major League team does.

      It’s a good question though and one that should be asked by a baseball writer.

      I’ve heard very little about scouts coming and going. That’s another good question for a press conference.

      One thing I did hear or read about was that the Mets signed more players in the top 500 2013 draft rankings than any other team in the Majors for whatever that’s worth.

      Closing the GCL team to save 1 M was asinine if you ask me because Kingsport being more advanced catches a lot of the IFA’s because they have at least one year in camp in the DR and another year in the DSL.

      The first year pro pitchers from the draft in Kingsport got killed last year and like I said some guys didn’t get to pitch that much.

      Maybe the whole thing was contrived to create a lot more competition, I don’t really know.

  15. Dan B March 19, 2013 at 8:21 pm
    The reporters seem sold on the facade of rebuilding. I have also read no reporting on debt refinancing and that seems to be effecting Mets finances as much as Madoff. In fact, I believe it was the drive to save money to pay off debt that led to them canceling the GCL team. Not needing those signing bonuses only helped. We won’t see true investing, including rebuilding the farm, until this last loan is refinanced.